==5 million Italians in France==!
According to the Cambridge Survey of World Migration, an estimated 5 million French nationals are of Italian descent or more than 8 percent of the total French population. Please see: http://books.google.com/books?id=BLo2RqGdv_wC&pg=PA143&lpg=PA143&dq=5+million+italians+in+france&source=web&ots=FS8QNMYmoq&sig=dDwUB09FSWcdigHxd0PeG5L94vc This should be included in the box, considering that the aucthonnous Italian populations in Switzerland is mentioned but not about France. Also there are 17,235,187 Italians in the United States as of 2005, not 16.6 million! See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_American
Something like 20% of the population in 16th C Rome was born outside Italy (mostly Spain, France, Germany and even England). Like you say, where are they now? As for historic migrations between Italy and France, while the bulk of the "ethnic" shift was due to political re-mapping (as you correctly stated), there was also a significant influx of Italian business people, artisans and courtiers to the heart of France. One needs only to think of the Medici connection to the French monarchy, but more telling were the hundreds of Italian family branches that set out to Paris, Lyon and Flanders. Again, where are they now? Mariokempes (talk) 21:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Northern/Southern appearance
Why was this paragraph deleted without explanation? I'm going to restore it. --89.97.35.70 (talk) 17:41, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
In very general terms, many Northern Italians tend to have fairer complexions, somewhat similar to central Europeans, along with a higher frequency of light-coloured hair and eyes. Most Southern Italians tend to have darker features, similar to other peoples of Southern Europe such as the Spaniards and the Greeks. Due to population movements throughout Italy's history, these physical characteristics are not greatly pronounced.
This is from a previous discussion:
TRAIT NORTH SOUTH Hair Blondism 15% 6%* Brown Hair 40% 48% Black Hair 25% 30% Eye Blondism 65% 56% = (Blue,Green,Hazel eyes) Brunet Skin ~50% >50% Average Height 168 cm 165 cm (in modern day 176,9 cm 174,8 cm) Cephalic Index ** 83.5 79This was a study by Carelton Coon: Also this map shows the same: I think it should stay!
I've reworded the paragraph to make it clear we are talking about frequency. For better or for worst, I've also given it its own section. Mariokempes (talk) 20:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- Coon said :
No country in Europe in which one language and one cultural tradition prevail shows a greater diversity of race between its southern and its northern extremities than does Italy. The binding element which is common to all sections is the Alpine, which has reëmerged from obscure beginnings through a superstructure composed of Dinaric, Nordic, and various kinds of Mediterranean accretions. Italy stands on the fence between the Alpine and Mediterranean worlds.
this is a map of the percentage of blond hair in Italy by Renato Biasutti:
http://aycu37.webshots.com/image/38316/2003631590295084685_rs.jpg
Map of the Percentage of Pure Light eyes :blue,green,gray (hazel eyes are not included)
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagine:Light_eyes_map.jpg
Hair & Eyes Pigmentation in Europe:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagine:Color.gif
Skin Color Map of Indigenous Populations :
http://www.vitalgraphics.net/ozone/graphics/jpg/04-Skin-color-map_cl.jpg
I agree that while there may be some noticeable change in frequency, it is not important enough to merit such attention. I'd like to also point out that it's not just north-south, as the coastal areas of the northwest (Liguria) show more in common with the central and southern regions than the north. Dionix (talk) 21:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Contribution to humanity
Why is there a cleanup tag there? What is there is concise and well written. The lack of citations is not a problem as the statements are backed up in the main articles or are common knowledge. I think the question is whether the section needs to be there at all. Mariokempes (talk) 18:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
??????????????????
"Often considered the most handsome and beautiful in the world, the Italians have made many positive contributions on the world. The United States of America pays a yearly fee to Italy for providing them with such beautiful babies as much of America has been populated with beautiful people." Please remove it.
Italian Americans
on the website for Italian Americans from Wikipedia, there are 17.2 million Itlaians in America with sources from American Fact finder!
Template:Italian Ethnic Groups and Irredentism
First, the title is misleading. Second- all references to "Greater Italy" or "Italia irredenta" should be removed- this is a fascist propaganda phrase that will lead to controversy and accusations of revisionism. Third- it is overbearing and if it needs to exist it should be simplified. I made what I thought were neutral improvements, but they have been mostly revereted. On another note- this focus on Italian irredentism is not about Italian people so much as about isolated political philosophy. It shouldn't be in the template at all. Some writers (and I am more than ever convinced it's really only one -or at most two) keep peddling this aspect to the detriment of the article and Italians. Get over it!! Mariokempes (talk) 20:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I have revereted the changes to the template once again and for my last time. The following is the text I added to Template talk:Italian Ethnic Groups:
While there may be a place for such articles, having a template about "Italians" with dodecanesi, corfiots, lybians, maltese and the like listed is just as politically motivated as putting lombardy and veneto as part of "Greater Austria" or southern Italy as part of "Greater Spain". Complete nonsense! While I supported the inclusion of Istriani, Corsicans, and even italian dalmati, there is a clear difference in that these people have a true historical connection to the ethnic composition of the Italian people.
professor Mary, your template (oops, I mean Pannonicus' template) IS incitement. Your arguments (oops, I did it again- I mean Bruno/ BD and assorted anonimous IP numbers from Colorado's arguments) on related articles- such as Nizzardo Italians or Corsican Italians are political situations not to be confused with the Nizzardo or Corsican populations in general and which are ethnically Italian anyways. You have profitted from Crystalclear's innocent creation of a template based on info you generated (that is, if he is indeed a separate being and not a sockpuppet. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt). I am reverting this one last time. Mariokempes (talk) 05:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)I made some changes to the template to clarify its intent:
- Italian Diaspora (Italian immigration to non-native lands)
- native Italian people outside Italy (native populations as opposed to Italian immigrants- but this should be looked at more closely as some classified are colonial situations)
- Foreigners in Italy (non Italians in Italy)
The template should also be moved to a better place name. Can anyone help? Dionix (talk) 19:08, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Ethnic group
An interesting and often heated debate in Talk:French people has made me re-think the term as it applies to Italians. The French article says: " Legally, the sovereign people of France are composed of all French citizens, regardless of ethnic origins or religious opinions. The "French people" therefore comprise all French citizens, including the French overseas departments and territories. Henceforth, members from any ethnic group can be included in the French people, as long as they have French nationality ". As a result, a reputable, scholarly reference pointing to a "French ethnic group" is difficult to come by. I've tried to find one defining an "Italian ethnic group" and, to my surprise, one is equally hard to come by. This makes me question the whole notion of Italians, a group with mixed and varied origins, defined as an ethnic group. Perhaps "Italian People" is a better term? Anybody out there with some insight or that can point to a valid reference? Dionix (talk) 21:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- Unlike on French people, this issue has never come up with regards to this article since the modern state of Italy clearly is defined by a fairly homogenous ethnic and cultural group (Italians) that is part of (and almost equated with) its national identity, similar to Germans. This article is also not about the "population of Italy" or its "demographics" like the French people article. This is about the Italian ethnic group and always has been. You may not have found a source but there are many out there. Sources on "French ethnic group" or "Italian ethnic group" may be hard to come by with that specific wording, but try looking for ethnic groups in certain states, including obviously Italy, from various sources. Many groups have "mixed" or varied origins, but are still fairly homogenous. Italians clearly fall under this c
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