Discussions about deletion of the article
"White Army propaganda poster depicting evil Trotsky. Notice the Chinese soldiers...')"
That is not a proper use of an established Racist, Antisemitic, Poster. --Ludvikus 04:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed. But their role does. `'Míkka 06:31, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
- And who decides on their "role", you Mikka? And your reference is a 'White" propaganda poster with Trotsky in it? --Ludvikus 12:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, I decide. And my references are plenty, given in the text. `'Míkka 15:05, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
On the picture there are some men who look like Chinese but they can be anything from Buryats, Mongols, Kalmyks, Tuvanians, Altai-men, Kyrgizs, Kazakhs, Chukchas, or Crimean Tatars. Temur 03:54, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
"imposed unto Russians by Jews, Red Latvian Riflemen and Chinese bayonets"
- Mikka Where do you get that quote from?
- Mikka I see the Sailors, but I'm not sure if they are Latvian. I see Riflemen who look like they are Chinese. But how do you get Jews out of the poster, Mikka ? --Ludvikus 01:11, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
While your thinking about the above, I've deleted the Poster as totally inappropriate in the article as it stands now. The usage of racist Propaganda posters to discuss the scholarship on the role of Chinese in the Russian Revolution is totally inappropriate. Unless, of course, you wish this article to show the Racism used by the "Whites" against the "Reds"? --Ludvikus 01:19, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
- The only one who expressed a desire to keep the Propaganda Poster is User:Irpen. --Ludvikus 04:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Here's a quote of a discussion on my Talk page:
— Yours truly, --Ludvikus 13:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
- So I'm reverting again - against User:Irpen's 3rd Reversion. --Ludvikus 13:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Unknown involvement of Chinese in Russian Revolution
- I didn't know about the possible involvement of Chinese military units in the Russian Revolution - only learned about it from this page. I find it quite interesting. I suggest that the article be expanded and properly cited rather than deleted. If the article must be deleted, its concept should at least be incorporated into another article about the Revolution.
--Richard
Unsigned, anonymous, Trolling comments of unregistered Users should not be allowed here, in deletion discussions. --Ludvikus 12:57, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
And here is the other kind of primary source which is used here as a reference:
The Soviet passed a resolution expressing "firm confidence that the Soviet Government will succeed in getting peace and so in opening a wide road to the construction of a proletarian state." A note was passed up to Kamenev who, glancing at it, announced that the newly elected representative of the Chinese workmen in Moscow wished to speak. This was Chitaya Kuni, a solid little Chinaman with a big head, in black leather coat and breeches. I had often seen him before, and wondered who he was. He was received with great cordiality and made a quiet, rather shy speech in which he told them he was learning from them how to introduce socialism in China, and more compliments of the same sort. Reinstein replied, telling how at an American labour congress some years back the Americans shut the door in the face of a representative of a union of foreign workmen. "Such," he said, "was the feeling in America at the time when Gompers was supreme, but that time has passed." Still, as I listened to Reinstein, I wondered in how many other countries besides Russia, a representative of foreign labour would be thus welcomed. The reason has probably little to do with the good-heartedness of the Russians. Owing to the general unification of wages Mr. Kuni could not represent the competition of cheap labour. I talked to the Chinaman afterwards. He is president of the Chinese Soviet. He told me they had just about a thousand Chinese workmen in Moscow, and therefore had a right to representation in the government of the town. I asked about the Chinese in the Red Army, and he said there were two or three thousand, not more.
(though he also was a reporter on the RR, & close to Trosky).
4th Reversion to Trotsky poster
Wikipedia Rules prohibit more than three (3) Reversions. Nevertheless, an editor, User Mikkai has just Reverted for a Fourth time - and Restored the Trotsy Poster which I deleted three times, and argued for deletion on the Talk page first, and not received substantial opposition to such deletion. --Ludvikus 03:17, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
"illustrates propaganda" vs. "used as propaganda"
14 October 2007 Bishonen (Talk | contribs) (6,114 bytes) (Rv. Please settle on talk before removing this very telling image. I'm hoping Ludvikus will eventually see that it *illustrates* propaganda, as opposed to being *used as* propaganda.)
- The latest Reversion is by User:Bishonen: he restored the Propaganda Poster of Lenin.
- He makes an excellent distinction (the above).
- However, he fails to see that at the moment it is being improperly "used as propaganda."
- The Poster is not discussed in the article.
- It is not Sourced or Referenced exactly - it may be a pretty good hoax.
- It does not "illustrate propaganda" - the article is not about that. The article is about the Chinese in the Revolution. There is nothing - at this stage of the article's life - which is benefited by the poster. Quite the contrary, it merely portrays the Chinese as the killers in the Russian Revolution.
- I wish User:Bishonen would have explained how the Poster illustrates Propaganda before he had Reverted.
White Russian poster ]
That's one of the two sources of the Poster. It is claimed to be of Trotsy at the age of 39, in 1919. --Ludvikus 19:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
- This is the title of the Poster at this Internet Archive: "1919: Civil War poster: White Russian anti-Semitism (39)" --Ludvikus 19:08, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
- Here's the List of Images at the Archive: . --Ludvikus 19:14, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
File:1919 Civil War poster - White Russian Anti-Semitism (39) t1919b.jpg
- Editor User:Irpen has just succeeded in having the image with its Original source name deleted. The original image image is labeled White Russian anti-Semitism . Why User:Irpen wishes - and succeeded - in having these two facts censored is incomprehensible to me. --Ludvikus 20:28, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
- No, that's not the title of the poster. Look at that archive list: those are descriptions, not titles. Or do you think there's one called "September 16 1916: Order for the expulsion of Trotsky from France"? Or "Mug shot from Russian secret police files" ? Ludvikus, now that you've failed to get any support for removing the poster, are you actively trying to make it look ridiculuos by that caption you call a title? Please desist. Bishonen | talk 20:30, 14 October 2007 (UTC).
- You're splitting-hairs. If you want to say they are description, good. These are the description given by the outside source . Why do you wish to whitewash this poster of its White Russian anti-Semitic roots given to it by the original source and have your own, inaccurate, distorting, propaganda, anti-Chinese, usage? --Ludvikus 20:34, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
- Instead of asking me to stop, why don't you guys explain - not to me - but how this poster "illustrates" anything but Racism against Jews and the Chinese? If you guys - User:Irpen and User:Bishonen - love this poster so much, why don't you write an Artcle about it Chinese stuges of Jewish monster? Or even an article on White Russian propaganda posters? But the article here is supposed to be about the role that "Chinese" played in the Russian Revolution. I have absolutely no idea how you can justify a anti-Chinese Racist picture, which was designed to show that Russian were not being killed by other Russians, but by Huns, Tartars, Jews, and other less-human people? Do you not understand that that was - and to those who know their history, still is - the subtext meaning of the poster? You both admit that it's propaganda. Then don't you guys know how propaganda works? Why don't you at least make some effort to justify your poster in the body of the article? Right now you are doing exactly what the White Russian Antisemites have done: using the image like so: "Look here, the enemy is a monster, inhuman, a Jew & Chinamen"! Are you guys really blind that that's the status of the article right now?
- Ludvikus, I have already asked you to please use Preview before you post, instead of posting in installments. As of this present moment, you have been editing your latest post for forty minutes and posted little corrections fourteen times . (I don't know how many more times you have in you.) Do you realize how many edit conflicts people get when tryin
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