Material archived from the Mountain Meadows massacre Talk page. (Jan-Feb 2007 approximate)
Starting with Gwen's draft
I propose that we start with Gwen's draft which sets the event in the historical context, is generally chronological and much easier to understand for the uninitiated than the prior version.
I also propose that we add references to Gwen's draft using <ref> type footnotes with harvard style referencing to the bibliography (the prevalent method used in the prior version). I.e. <ref>Last_Name (YEAR), p. #.</ref> --Trödel 03:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC).
I was so happy to see that Gwen's version remains - thanks for the nice words and for the quick closure. As I am not sure I can write as neutrally as Davemeister and Gwen - I hope I can copyedit and help find references. -- Trödel 07:15, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
You want to do a re-write thats fine. Do it on the draft page and get a consensus. As of right now you are posting a incomplete article absent any cites. You shouldn't alter the article until you have an improvement to make. Sqrjn 23:31, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
User:S.B.Anthony
Please be advised that the use of a sockpuppet to evade WP policy (including 3rr) can lead to a long term block. Please also be advised that sockpuppet checks can be requested for the purpose of enforcing WP policy where necessary. Gwen Gale 05:05, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Note, there is every indication that User:S.B.Anthony is a sockpuppet of Sqrjn, created for the purpose of evading the three revert rule. Gwen Gale 05:05, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Every indication?! I hope you can back that up. I think your the one in violation of policy now. Good faith is "policy". I remember when Storm Rider accused me of being a sock puppet. I hope you'll apologize to like he eventually did. Sqrjn 05:18, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Instead of running your mouth I suggest you go back and look at my "one edits". Also if you think I'm a sock puppet or I'm using sock puppets I suggest you file a complaint. I really wish you'd and everyone else would address the content of my statements. I am continually trying to engage people in a dialog, but I keep getting the feeling that its impossible.
I noticed you've made a contribution to the article. Many, many thanks!
- I'd rather see you contribute to this collaborative effort than grass on you.
- If we call it kidnapping, it's original research. If we cite a secondary source which calls it kidnapping, we've created an unassailable component of an open encyclopedia article. Gwen Gale 03:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Before this line goes too far it is appropriate to register my position. I reject any claim to it being kidnapping. I think the term is inflammatory and is not accurate. If everyone is dead how can it possibly be kidnapping? What is the difference between kidnapping and providing aid to the children who were spared? That's right...no difference. Thus, to call it kidnapping only serves to satisfy a specific POV. I will have no qualms about including a quote from a valid historian that calls it kidnapping, but it would then also be necessary to include the other 100 historians that never used the term. I reject the repeated false assumption that it meets legal terms; it doesn't and I suspect that is why no one has ever termed it such. --Storm Rider (talk) 05:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Interesting summary by Terryl Nolan Fancher and moving forward
Terryl Nolan Fancher, first cousin 4 times removed of wagon master, Captain Alexander Fancher, summarizes the events this way:
This is a pretty dispassionate summary - and I think we should strive for this type of objectivity.
Since tjere are a few people that object to the current efforts at a rewrite, I suggest the following: continue the rewrite without the interruptions of reverting, and initiating an RfC to seek comment on the rewrite from a broader audience. -- Trödel 16:29, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Utah War?
Just noticed that in the current version that all references to the Utah War have been elimiated. I think that it provides important context, and is included in every book written on the topic. Shall we add in Utah War items such as buchanan's order, pratt's death and "the reformation" as context and setting from the mormon side? We have the beginnings of it from the fancher side, which still can be filled in more as well. -Visorstuff 17:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Cites
Why are you not including cites? How is anything you are doing an improvement without cites? Are you doing this re-write from your personal memory?!? Are you hoping others will go back and do the research for you??Sqrjn 21:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Clue me in. When exactly did I violate a policy? If you've got a complaint make one. Repeating accusations is just pointless and rude. I see that you didn't actually answer any of my questions. I'm begging you to show me where it says you cant use accurate language. The mediator even said that if its kidnapping call it kidnapping. Why does finding a term in a secondary source suddenly make it valid or invalid? The Jungles of Arkansas: A Personal History of the Wonder State. by Bob Lancaster The Journal of Southern History, Vol. 57, No. 3 (Aug., 1991) Take a look and get back to me. Sqrjn 03:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Proclamation by the Governor. http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cgi-bin/docviewer.exe?CISOROOT=/NCMP1847-1877&CISOPTR=2905 Note date: August 5, 1857.
"On August 5, 1857, Brigham Young issued his first proclamation declaring martial law and forbidding any US troops to enter the territory. This broadside, however, was given little, if any, circulation." http://relarchive.byu.edu/19th/descriptions/proclamationgovernor.html "was given little, if any, circulation" ??
Interesting choice for the train @ Salt Lake City: (1) Should they head North to Washington Territory(now Idaho) and follow the California & Oregon Trails under protection of the US Army @ FT Hall, FT Boise, Ft Walla Walla, and Carson City or should they have taken the old Spanish Trail through Utah Territory under the command of B. Young(prophet, seer, & revolator of the Mormons)the former Governor of Utah Territory and former Superintendent of Indian Affairs, who had rejected the Constitution of the United States of America?
Hard choice.
Maybe you can help? Available on the web are acceptances statements(signed and dated) from three territorl govenors: Lane from Oregon. Stevens from Washington. Wallace from Idaho. Each agreed to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America. Did Brigham Young agree to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America? Is there a 'link'(photograph) signed and dated? The state capitol archeives perhaps?Tinosa 02:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Incidentally, during the deposition of Young durint the trial, he noted that:
Again, curious if he was invited to sign the same statement? -Visorstuff 01:35, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Have been attempting to create a time-line of the investigation of MMM. The following is a list of participants. Any comments?Civilians Involved:
Tinosa 23:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
140
I went back to when we started using this number - it was after a reference was provided by Tinosa about how many were killed in Archive 4. I went back and looked at the reference, and it is a Wikipedia mirror article about Mountain Meadows (citing an earlier version of the page . I can't find any other source for 140. Can someone provide one? If not, I've gone with citable claims in the introduction, with notes about who claimed what. I plan to pull page numbers later. -Visorstuff 22:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
External links
Generally good references are preferred over external links, and references that are linked generally should not be included in the list of external links therefore I am reviewing the EL on meeting the standards at WP:EL - see below and please review and correct me. -- Trödel 22:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
- ^ Is it accessible to the reader? Web accessibility ... is especially important for people with disabilities such as visual impairment.
- ^ Is it proper in the context of the article (useful, tasteful, informative, factual, etc.)?
- ^ Is it a functional link, and likely to continue being a functional link?
- ^ Articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the official site if any.
- ^ "Neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts
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