Link dump
I'm doing a web search for interesting quotes. I'm just dumping links here as I find them. Do feel free to use any of the material I find. Also feel free to comment on the people concerned. I don't know enough about this subject to know who is important and who isn't, so if I link to a page of extremists or out and out nutcases please let me know, like wise if someone is very important -let me know that too theresa knott 13:27, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- When public health concerns are used to justify crackdowns on gay bars, sexclubs, bathhouses, and other spaces in which men meet and have sex, and an increasingly assimilationist gay rights movement continues to vilify gay male sex cultures, how do we organize resistance? ... When journalists, police, and even some gay activists target and victimize public-sex participants, what kinds of oppositional organizing is effective? We see our work at this summit as a way to continue the strain of the gay liberation movement which focused on sexual freedom and the creation of new models for gay male relationships and communities from
- “What are we supposed to do?” he asked. “Gay people exist. They are a fact of human society, of human nature. Sexual orientation is fixed. The religious right wants people in bathhouses. They don’t want them in marriages. want us to go back to the ’50s.” Sullivan -quote from here
Let's not muddy the waters here. None of those links really says anything useful for this article. I should also point out that Andrew Sullivan, who is a well known conservative and has been a vocal opponent of things like bathhouses and unsafe sex, was also largely discredited when it was discovered that he engages in bareback (that is, unprotected) sex with strangers. They even devoted an episode of (the US version of) Queer as Folk to it. Exploding Boy 14:05, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)
Cool, let's say that in the article then! Why does the subject have to be so dry? Why can't we have a bit of passion added? theresa knott 14:10, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Because there's no value in adding random stuff just for the sake of it. If you can find something that's relevant, by all means. These links really don't seem to be. Exploding Boy 14:13, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)
Who is SKY GILBERT? at "eye weekly" - have you ever heard of them?
Canadian/American gay playwright/poet/novelist/activist/actor. Supposedly controversial. Don't really know anything about him. Exploding Boy
Ah but at least he's not a nobody. What do you think of this quote about the raid at the women's bathhouse event at Club Toronto. "What happened at Club Toronto last Friday night is that these women were raped; not physically, but morally, emotionally and spiritually. They had established a haven -- a safe, private space to explore their sexuality (which is still held in contempt by most of society) -- and these police officers violated it." taken from an article here ? theresa knott 14:29, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I agree with it. The incident is mentioned in the bathhouse article. Exploding Boy 14:33, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)
Go for it. Exploding Boy 14:48, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)
Crystal meths (speed)
I keep coming across references to this drug See or should it be mentioned in the article? theresa knott 16:23, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I guess you could add it to the list of drugs mentioned in the article, but I'm not so sure that crystal is all that commonly used in bathhouses, and certainly not everywhere (for example, it's common in large American urban areas like LA, but not so much in other places), and certainly nowhere near as common as alcohol, pot and coke. Exploding Boy 00:12, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)
I was gonna post this last night, but couldn't, for some reason — I'm not convinced you need to. I think it's mainly a local thing to New York (or at least the US; I certainly can't think of anything really having been mentioned in London's gay scene or sauna scene. The warning posters in Chariots (London's biggest sauna chain) are all about GHB (another date rape drug) and how you'll be banned if they find you with any (and they're only signs, I've never heard anyone actually discuss the drug or it having been used). I don't think it's that big a deal, personally. — OwenBlacker 09:43, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)
POV dispute unreconciled
See talk thread already underway at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Archived nominations/Gay bathhouse Pollinator 22:22, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)
From FAC/Archive/Gay bathhouse
(Following discussion moved from FAC/Archive/Gay bathhouse) OwenBlacker 10:09, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)
OK, I'll add myself as disputing the article's neutrality. The article is an informative piece of journalism, but it's what I call "gee, whiz" journalism, because it is shallow. And it is saturated with POV - that "anything between consenting adults...," a POV that may be popular with some but is far from universal. When you purchase a product at the store, the price you pay is often not the only price involved. There are other prices paid by society, in the form of disposing of the packaging, cleaning up pollution involved in the manufacture, etc. That there are manufacturers, who for profit, are only too happy to pass the hidden costs to society is a given. And that there are gullible consumers who will even use products that are hurtful to them, then turn around and try to pass off the consequence on others is likewise obvious (witness the recent events in the tobacco industry). The author of this article shows his POV, as well as awareness that there is another price, by empasizing the "safety" measures taken, but avoids any further (depth) analysis of the true safety and the end consequences of failure. It's a commentary on our ability to compartmentalize that we are becoming increasingly aware of hidden consumer and environmental costs, but, because of the arguable POV aforementioned, the hidden health and social costs are simply glossed over when promiscuous sex is involved. Oppose Pollinator 20:06, Jun 15, 2004 (UTC)
I'd like you to be more specific, if possible. Exploding Boy 23:48, Jun 15, 2004 (UTC)
Pollinator. See, I think people are confusing the content, purpose and scope of this article with that of several others. Pollinators comments, which essentially echo Sam's, are basically that there is not enough discussion of the potential ramifications of promiscuity. This article is not about promiscuity. The promiscuity article is where those issues need to be discussed in depth. This article is about bathhouses. Some people have promiscuous sex at bathhouses; others do not. But either way, that's not what this article is about. Exploding Boy 12:23, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)
...Which is why people are inclined to think of objections like this as moralising. See, since there's already information on the potential health consequences of sex, you seem to be asking for comments on the supposed psychological toll that using bathhouses takes on those who do. I'd argue in response that there probably is no such toll, and that bathhouse users who suffer psychologically do so not as a result of using bathhouses , but as a result of internalized homophobia or some other problem. Bathhouses are generally good corporate and community citizens, they disseminate safer sex information -- they are one of the major places that do so -- they do their best to ensure the health and safety of their patrons. In the end what an individual person does is his or her responsibility, and cannot be blamed on a bathhouse. If I choose to have unprotected, anonymous anal sex it is not the existence of the bathhouse, or the fact that I'm there, that leads me to do it. In fact, in a bathhouse it's probably fairly difficult considering most places give each and every person a few condoms and lube as soon as they walk in the door, and many have bowls of the things lying around everywhere, have safer sex posters on the walls of all the rooms and in the common areas, and ask patrons to affirm that they will practice safer sex on the premises. The fact is, if people are going to have unsafe sex they're going to do it, bathhouse or no, and the same applies to promiscuous or anyonymous sex. Essentially what bathhouses do is provide a venue for relaxation and recreation -- and yes, for sex. But just as bars provide a venue for drinking and we don't blame them for people's alcoholism, we can't blame bathhouses for people's individual choices when it comes to sexual behaviour. Exploding Boy 03:57, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)
Continuing discussion
I agree with Exploding Boy. An article about a bar wouldn't be expected to have a discussion about alcoholism, other than a paragraph explaining something about bars and their special impact on the subject: do they make alcohol abuse more or less of a problem.
Whilst I agree that the article on promiscuity should include a discussion of the risks of promiscuity and the increased likelihood of acquiring STDs, and particularly HIV, I don't believe that this article should contain much more than what it does on the subject already. There is already a section covering Gay bathhouses and STDs — quite an extensive section at that — I honestly believe that including any more detail on the subject would be making the article less NPOV, not more.
I sha'n't remove the NPOV tag that you've readded until we're in broad agreement across the community, though. Sorry, I didn't think I was being as hasty as it w
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