"Large or medium-sized country", etc
We read:
- the Top 40 of a national singles chart in a large or medium sized country
- a song that hit the Top 20 on a major country 's chart
I don't suppose geographical area matters all that much. So what does matter -- population? Compared with Indonesia, let alone China, most countries seem insignificant, and I've a feeling that the notion of "medium" is affected by where one has lived. (For Germans, ten million would be small; for Latvians, large.) I dunno ... could one say twenty million? Or do something less arbitrary like 40% of the median national population? (But why 40 and not 30 or 50 or whatever?)
Whatever the population, it will be a lot less than the populations of speakers of a number of, say, Indian languages; and for all I know there are charts of Gujarati, Malayalam and other hits. It could then seem a little, um, "nationalocentric" to automatically include top forty hits of Romania (pop. 22M) but not those of Gujarati-speaking India (pop. 43M).
(Though I've a dark suspicion that some people take "major" to mean "anglophone".)
Another thing. Let's imagine that some musically, politically, socially (etc) insignificant song manages to be top of the pops in Estonia (pop. under one and a half million) for a whole year. I think that this alone would make it significant. Or anyway, a simple binary rule "'Chart performance' is a criterion for significance when population (or area, or market size or whatever) is above X; not when it's below this" is unreasonable.
Just some ideas half-thought-up while not completely awake. -- Hoary 14:39, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
"Relevant Songs"
I don't know why we need so many arguments-for the most part this seems pretty straightforward. I understand that having TOO many songs just gets kind of pointless, but people should just use common sense. Obviously, a Japanese import limited edition Sex Pistols B-side is probably not going to merit much of an entry and if people are dumb enough to go through the trouble of putting up one line about it fine-just delete it. But it seems like it is a bit unbalanced the other way as well. I mean, really, the Beatles were good, but do we really need reviews for, like, 1/6th (or something) of the entire Beatles catalog? That's 60 songs. A but much if you ask me, considering there are three entries for The Smiths songs and none for Fugazi. Does "Think For Yourself" (which is probably only the die-hard Beatles fan would acknowledge as a "relevant" and "successful" song) really merit an entry, when songs such as "This Charming Man", "How Soon Is Now", or "Wating Room", all considered groundbreaking and excellent have NO entry? Probably not. Yes, a die hard Beatlemanic or Sex Pistols fan or Smashing Pumpkin fan could probably write paragraphs upon paragraphs about every song their band has ever written. But is it nessecary? No. Just use common sense people.
Songs
I notice that your WikiProject has not set down any guidelines for song notability yet. I was hoping to consult them as to the notability of the song Vive la rose, which I have nominated for deletion. Has any discussion occurred yet as to what makes a song notable enough for its own article? (I brought this up earlier on Wikipedia:WikiProject Songs and they suggested I bring up the discussion here.) --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 19:11, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with Alf but I don't think this can be defined, or even judged, well enough to be a primary criterion. What I think we should not use is "any song by any performer who meets WP:MUSIC". Otherwise we'll have a couple of hundred articles on "St. Louis Blues", a hundred on "New York, New York", and so forth. Barno 00:15, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Criteria for notability
I'll start adding some suggestions for notability below. Comment on them and suggest new ones. --Moochocoogle 01:34, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Initial suggestions for notability criteria:
- Has appeared in the Top 40 of a national singles chart in a large or medium sized country.
- Is a song that helped define a specific genre of music.
- Is any song from a very notable album.
- Any song that has won a major award.
These are all fine by me. However, we're missing a broad category, something like "standards". Under these criteria right now we would have Happy Birthday to You or Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. I'm not sure how to word the criteria exactly, though. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 15:59, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
I think this is coming at the question from the wrong direction. If a subject, in this case either a band or an album, is deemed encyclopedic, there's no reason not to include all relevant detail. If there's enough information about an album that it would overwhelm the artist's article, then it should be spun off into its own article. (Almost all of the time, albums are started immediately in their own articles, and that's perfectly ok since they'll inevitably be too large for the band's.) Likewise, if enough information about a specific song is put into an album's article, then maybe the song should itself be split out - I'd have no problem with a separate article for every song written by a one-hit wonder, provided that they're verifiable, nontrivial, and not small enough to merit merges. A forest of redirects is of course in order, pre-split. —Korath (Talk) 17:52, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
So how about Boyfriend (song)? At the time that I listed it for AfD, it was a one-line stub that said, basically, "The new single by Ashlee Simpson". Does a song deserve an article just because it's the latest release by some pseudo-famous pop star? That's not notability. If this is allowed to remain, then there are no song criteria except that every song by somebody who passes WP:MUSIC deserves an article. User:Zoe| (talk) 19:19, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
New proposal
We need clear and enforced rules for song article inclusion , because the fancruft is getting overwhelming. I agree with several previous suggestions, and also add my own:
- ONLY notable songs deserve articles. What makes a song notable? In most cases, a major and notable hit for its performer. Note that not every single or even every hit by an artist is notable enough for a Wikipedia article . Every Ashlee Simpson, Mariah Carey, R. Kelly, Michael Jackson (no, not even Michael; do we really need a seperate article on, say, "Just a Little Bit of You"?) Joe or Jane Blow record that ever came out does not inherently deserve an article, and articles on their albums should never appraoch a legnth that would require such. No, Wikipedia is not paper, but it is aso not a depository for overinformation. The Supremes' "Love is Like an Itching in My Heart" was a #9 hit, but it does not deserve an article because it is otherwise not notable. The same could probably be said for The Temptations' "My Baby", for which I only created an article because I needed one for its (far more notable) b-side, "Don't Look Back" (if anyone wants to V, er, Afd the "My Baby" article, I won't miss it). ( *update* I just redirect the "My Baby" article to its proper album, to hopefully establish precedent) Ike & Tina Turner's "River Deep - Mountain High" didn't make the Top 40, but it is still a highly notable song because of Phil Spector's participation, and the popularity it recieved after its original release.
- Logic should be able to dictate whether or not a recording is notable enough for a seperate article. A notable song article should be at least three paragraphs of prose that does not involve a summarization of chart performance or production credits. The article itself should tell us why the song is notable. Is it the band's signature song? THen it's notable. Is it a member of the band's specialty number? Then it might be notable, if it wasn't a hit or doesn't typically appear on one of their greatest hits albums, leave it out. Was it a number one hit? Then, yes, it's notable (I believe the Hot 100 editors are creating their own articles, though, for each #1 US pop hit). Did it when a major award? (A Grammy or AMA; we shouldn't be writing articles for songs that won a Source Hip-Hop Award, a BET Award, or even an MTV VMA, for that matter) Then, yes, it is notable. Is it on that Rolling Stone list of 500 songs that shaped rock and roll? Then, by all means, write an article for it.
- The idea of creating articles for every single an artist ever rleeased (or planned to release) is too much. For example, Mariah Carey's cover of "Do You Know Where You're Going To", a cancelled single release that did not chart and is otherwise not notable, does not need its own article. In fact, the original Diana Ross version doesn't need an article either (the Mariah Carey version somehow recieved an article first ; the Diana Ross information was added to it, and then an editor split them in two). In this case, "Do You Know Where You're Going To" should not have an article of its own in any form or fashion. Footnotes in the articles for Mahogany (1975 film). Diana Ross (1976 album), and Mariah's #1s will suffice.
- As far as standards and other notable compositions that are 50 years old and older, those certainly deserve articles.
- I can't stress this enough: DO NOT create seperate articles for songs that are different recordings of the same composition . For problem cases like "I Heard it Through the Grapevine", wh
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