v • d • e This article is within the scope of WikiProject Fashion , a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Fashion on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks. v • d • e This article is within the scope of WikiProject Companies , a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Companies on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks. Archived Talk Page
Thanks for archiving the talk page. Hopefully future dialog won't be lost.67.136.137.119 23:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Criticism of the Company
Section renamed
I renamed the section to attempt to conform more closelt to WP:NPOV.Amber luxor 17:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Mary Kay Qua Pyramid Scheme
I do not like the current wording of the sub-section "Mary Kay Qua Pyramid Scheme". For starters,it consists of too many direct quotes. Either dicuss it here,or rewrite it paragraph by paragraph.67.136.137.119 23:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Pyramid scheme: "a fraudulent scheme in which people are recruited to make payments to the person who recruited them while expecting to receive payments from the persons they recruit ; when the number of new recruits fails to sustain the hierarchical payment structure the scheme collapses with most of the participants losing the money they put in"
Because new consultants pay Mary Kay corporate rather than the recruiter, and the recruiter is paid commissions through Corporate as well, Mary Kay does not resemble a pyramid scheme. However, if the one would like to still make the argument, evidence is needed directly tying the scheme to this company. The entire section must be rewritten. The previous section was vague, largely irrelevant to Mary Kay, and inappropriate. 70.122.53.194 21:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
a) Quoting an earlier talk discussion: "In Re Kescott (86 F.T.C. 1106) essentially ruled that all MLMs were pyramid schemes. In Re Amway (93 F.T.C. 618) essentially said that if an MLM met specific criteria, it was not a pyramid scheme. Those criteria have become known as "The Amway Safe Harbor Defence", and, as such, are case law."Amber luxor 01:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
b) Mary Kay does not meet any of the criteria outlined by "in Re Amway" that can be used to demonstrate that it (Mary Kay) is not a pyramid scheme. Amber luxor 01:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
c) In a pyramid scheme consideration can be transferred either directly from recruit to upline, or indirectly, from recruit to corporate to upline. Mary Kay commissions are based upon wholesale purchases, and as such, are indirect payments to the upline from the consultant. This is how Mary Kay resembles a product based pyramid scheme.Amber luxor 01:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
d) The nature of Mary Kay requires consultants to recruit, if they wish to advance in the organization. There is no advancement for retail sales, regardless of the amount of product that is sold. This is yet another way of how Mary Kay resembles a product based pyramid scheme.Amber luxor 01:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
e) The section "Mary Kay Qua Pyramid Scheme" needs editing/rewriting, not deletion.Amber luxor 01:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
1. Pyramid schemes are illegal and the Federal Trade Commission shuts them down. Mary Kay has been around for over 46 years and has never had legal action brought against them by the government for being a pyramid scheme or product based pyramid scheme.
2. An argument above mentions a ruling that all MLMs are essentially pyramid schemes - Mary Kay is NOT a MLM - it is a Direct Sales company, there is a difference.
3. Calling a legitimate business a pyramid scheme (or product based pyramid scheme - another illegal structure) is SLANDER & misrepresenting the company as an illegal structure in a place where people go to gain unbiased knowledge is irresponsible and could negatively affect the businesses of hundreds of thousands of independent sales force members.
4. A product based pyramid scheme touts products that are either fake (they don't really sell those products) or don't actually have a retail market - they are primarily designed to trick participants into joining the organization (i.e. a widget that the creator of the pyramid paid $1 for and sells to the recruits for $100, at a mark up so high that it would be difficult to sell to a retail customer. Because the sales force members cannot then turn around and sell the highly priced widget in the retail market they are forced to recruit in order to recoup their original investment or make any money in the plan. Which is why recruiting is the primary source of income in these structures). Mary Kay products are widely used and do have a retail market. Additionally, many women in the company make money purely selling the products with out ever recruiting.
5. The majority of Mary Kay sales force members make their money through selling the products to end users. Going a step further than the company provided information on this subject, and using a common sense approach to logic: If you were to ask a sales force member what he or she did for a living (as related to her Mary Kay business), the large majority would respond by saying “I sell Mary Kay.” There would be no benefit to the sales force member to say this if it were not true (ie she could just say her rank/title instead – but she does not because she wants to promote the fact that she SELLS the products and that customers can go to her with any product needs).
6. There are many customers extremely loyal to the Mary Kay brand and use the products as end users outside of the organization.
7. In a traditional pyramid scheme, products and services are not sold or exchanged, the only thing that is exchanged is money. Mary Kay sells products to end users. Illegal pyramid schemes might try to make it appear as though there is a legitimate product or service being rendered when there is indeed none.
8. Mary Kay Sales force members DO NOT make money on pure recruiting or purely bringing someone into the business. No one gets paid when a consultant just gets started with her $100 starter kit and moves no further. Consultants/Directors get paid a percentage of subsequent wholesale sales by the recruited team member. This is a huge distinction and it misrepresents the business to make a blanket statement that sales force members get paid on recruiting. Often times in pyramid schemes, predators are looking to make that quick upfront money on their victims and then move on to the next victim.
9. Sales force members are not required to recruit to stay in the business or at all if they choose not to. In order to sustain a pyramid scheme, each participant would be required to recruit.
10. Recruiters do not get paid to infinity on new recruits, therefore there is NOT an endless stream of recruits getting paid on recruits, etc. For example, consultant "A" only ever adds consultant "B," consultant "A" would get paid a percentage of the wholesale sales of consultant "B," if then consultant "B" adds consultant "C," consultant "A" would not get paid at all on consultant "C."
11. Consultants can advance in the company without recruiting. I would consider building a large customer base and having a large business an advancement, even just making extra money to make ends meet by having a side sales business is an advancement. If you owned your own McDonald's, for example, and increased your customers and sales, would you say that is not an advancement in your business? To downplay the accomplishments of the sales force and say they can't advance places an exaggerated emphasis on recruiting over sales that is not necessarily present in the business. The recognition of Queen of Sales is definitely an advancement in the business - it is based on the sales performance of one individual, not their team (and therefore not linked to recruiting).
12. There are illegal pyramid schemes out there that do defraud people. Pyramids have been successful because they try to mimic legitimate business models. Just like a counterfeit bill, criminals try to make it look like (or as close to) the real thing. Expanding on the counterfeit analogy, it is just as important to know what a real $100 bill looks like as it is a fake one to protect oneself. Understanding the difference between a legitimate business with a similar structure (ie Mary Kay) will better help people prevent being taken in by the corrupt businesses. PublicKnowledege300 (talk) 19:32, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Here is the bottom line: In neither "In Re Kescott (86 F.T.C. 1106) nor Re Amway (93 F.T.C. 618) is Mary Kay accused of being a pyramid or product based pyramid. The law is NOT "guilty until proven innocent." Here are the facts – FACT pyramid and product based pyramid schemes are illegal. FACT Mary Kay has never been found guilty by the government for being a pyramid or product based pyramid scheme. It is i
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