Please visit Talk:Nicolaus Copernicus/Nationality to read and contribute to discussions regarding Copernicus' nationality – thank you!
Some messages concerning Copernicus
On Polish Wikipedia Board http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Polish_Wikipedians'_notice_board#Nicolaus_Copernicus_2
Nicolaus Copernicus
We have a troll denying he was Polish. Usuall stuff, but some monitoring is needed before this vandal gives up and goes away.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 18:05, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Mikołaj Kopernik under attack After a lengthy debate which showed that there is no reason to doubt his nationality and vote that confirmed this one of the most active users started to delete every sentence that mentions Kopernik was Polish. He also claims that Gdańsk wasn't part of Poland but of Saxony hereDanzig Research Society --Molobo 02:29, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Who is copying whom This is exactly the stuff that Molobo & Co write, the part about Nazis and recent fellow travellers claim Copernicus... Is maxwellhouse in uk copying Molobo and wikipedia without giving credit to wikipedia, or what is going on ?
Poll results
A nonbinding poll was conducted to determine how the issue of Copernicus' nationality should be handled in the lead of the article. Results can be found here.
Poll summary
Note that this summary does not count questionable votes by: anonymous IP users, new users/alleged sockpuppets.
1. Polish astronomer - 13 votes
2. No mention of nationality in the lead - 6 votes
3. Polish astronomer of German origin - 3 votes
4. from $CITY - 1 vote
Option 1 received 56.5% of valid votes, option 2 26.1%, option 3 13.0%, option 4 4.3%.
If they cannot be stated in the lead because it would look clumsy, well, leave the nationality question out I see no reason why should we leave his nationality out.No scholary argument has been given. It is sad to see that some people are still influenced by German nationalist propaganda from XIX century which tried to erase all mention of Polish achievements. In fact Kopernik is known worldwide as Polish astronomer and Wikipedia should reflect this. No besides well known views of Matthead and Sciurinæ who work with great effort to "remove Polish POV" every day, can we finally get some scholary source denying he was Polish ? --Molobo 01:39, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Sockpuppetry
Please note, that in the poll above,
- Logologist (talk · contribs)
- KonradWallenrod (talk · contribs)
- Mattergy (talk · contribs)
- Anatopism (talk · contribs)
are confirmed sockpuppets . The outcome of the vote may change based on this information -- Chris 73 | Talk 22:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Nicolaus Copernicus, born in Thorn, historically known as Prussian Mathematician
Portraits of Copernicus with inscriptions Canon of Warmia, Prussian Mathematician, Thorn in Prussia etc
Thorn in Culmerland in Prussia, map from 16th century
Thorn/Thorun Nicolaus Copernicus' City of Birth:
Book on Nicolaus Copernicus with BioSalem Press, 2005
Editor Christina J. Moose
Great Lives from History The Renaissance & Early Modern Era
Nicolaus Copernicus Bio
by William Urban
Stanford University on Nicolaus Copernicus
- Online search 2006 Kopernikus deutscher Astronom und Mathematiker (German astronomer and mathematician)
- Hallmark International UK Famous Germans Nicolaus Copernicus
MG 3/22/2006
Neutrality and factual accuracy
May I ask, for what reason there are now these two templates in top of the article? I think we agree that the majority of the article is of high quality. We have dispute about the best version in the lead (concerning one ore two words) and perhaps there are some disagreements about the "nationality subsection". The factual accuracy was not really doubted for the most of the article - but this is the impression the templates evoke. I think their position is completely disproportionate. I would propose that the one who inserted it reverts it (wasn't that you Balcer?). And if it is considered necessary he shall shift the templates to the nationality section.--Dagox 11:09, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Some comments on recent edits and whatnot
Some general comments:
- 1. Why are we citing sources in the opening paragraph?
- 2. Why are we citing encyclopedias as sources?
There's solid evidence that Copernicus was born in Toruń (Thorn), which was then part of Chełmno Land (Kulmerland)) and is now part of the Kuyavian-Pomeranian Voivodship in northern Poland, so why don't we just say that?
What's the point of bickering endlessly about whether we say he was Polish or German in the introduction when at that time the modern states of Poland and Germany did not exist? People interested in working out issues of nationality can read the section "Historical background to the question of Copernicus' nationality" and then go to the source documents (note: not encyclopedias!) but this is not an instititute for primary research and we should not try to decide such issues, whether by voting or not. We should just say what can be said for a fact in the introduction and move on. --Tony Sidaway 01:39, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh use of signed articles from major encyclopedias, that have references, is recommended by Wikipedia:Reliable sources, but it goes on: "Be warned that most unsigned entries are written in batches by freelancers with little expertise and must be used with caution."
Since there are expert sources we can direct readers to on this matter I don't know why we are citing encyclopedia articles at all.
By the way since there seemed to be an incipient edit war I thought I'd better protect the article for a few hours to let everybody cool off. I'll unprotect later today (or ask someone else to do it if you can't wait). --Tony Sidaway 04:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not editing the article, only seeking to find a way to reduce friction between the contributors. --Tony Sidaway 04:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Sources about the controversy
"However just as there was no German state prior to 1871, ideas about which area constituted Germany varied over the centuries, particularly as there were no natural geographical boundaries, especially in the east. Accordingly, it remains a matter of dispute to this day whether the astronomer Copernicus should be regarded as a German or a Pole. Given the geographical and ethnic uncertainties, it is small wonder that the greatest German poet, Goethe, spoke of his inability to 'find' the country Germany." -From Understanding Contemporary Germany by K Stuart Parkes
Yes, it's a book about the history of Germany and Copernicus is in the introduction.
Dear Balcer!
The whole discussion seems to be rewound. Arguments concerning the historical debate can be found in the archiv .
There was a debate, when nationalism arose in the 19th century untill at least 1945. The scientific achievements in the Copernicus research of this period are considerable and still appreciated although chauvinism was present and has to be taken into account when the respective publications are used. No historian will doubt that there was also a scientific debate concerning Copernicus' nationality.
After 1945 it has become more and more unpopular to insist in German national affairs - no surprise after the German war crimes and the Holocaust. However, in the scientific area (perhaps not all but) several very reputed historians solved the problem in a different way: They considered it as a mere anachronistic topic evoked by national vanity and felt it was of minor importance. So they avoided explicit attribuation of Copericus to a nationality and they just mention in their books the historical facts like his citizenship, the (indeed complex) relation of Warmia to the Polish king and Teutonic order, or what is known about his language skills etc. Some examples:
- Edward Rosen , major source of the Encyclopedia Britannica and Columbia Encyclopedia .
- Owen Gingerich , Havard University, received Polish government's Order of Merit (1981),
- The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy ,
You may not be convinced. However, you can't claim that there hasn't been a debate or that all reputed historians and books agree with your opinion. It is not even clear, why your POV should be considered superior to the Rosen's or Gingerichs's: it is neither more neutral nor
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