See Talk:Jesus Christ
Neutrality of images of Jesus
Jesus Love you so much!!! give your life for he now!!! God has a great plain to change your life!! Jesus is alive!
ô Deus!!!
It can be justly considered POV on my part but, I have a problem with pictures of Jesus in an article that is supposed to provide "neutral" information about him. Mkmcconn 17:15 Mar 24, 2003 (UTC)
These images don't say this is him, merely that this is a widely used one. It is clearly categorised to indicate which branch of christianity use this image. It does not suggest this is him, just that this is how billions of christians see him as. Just because we have no definitive image is no justification for not using some image. We don't have a live picture of George Washington, Elizabeth I, Napoleon, St. Peter, all popes before Pius IX, all US presidents before the 1850s, the Irish Famine, the Black Death, etc. but sourcebooks, textbooks, etc still use drawings, paintings, representations, etc. Sometimes we have images made during their lifetime. In many cases, we have artworks that are pure speculation.
One problem with many articles on wiki is that we have few images. We have vast texts which as anyone who has ever laid out a page in a publication knows are an instant turnoff to readers. Creating a reader-friendly layout involves using headings, definitions, a reader-friendly typeset and images that break up the text and give a context. All this image does is remind people that this man had a facey. It reminds people that most christian religions have images of him which they use in their churches and prayer-houses. It contextualises this image by saying which branch of christianity it comes from. There is nothing to stop people adding in alternative images of Christ from Orthodox soures, various protestant sources, etc. Creating a special images of Christ page would run contrary to the basic rule of laying out main text pages, which is always if at all possible use images in the text to break up the text and make it more userfriendly. This image (and the others used) just happen to be from a website with states its images are free of copyright and are free to be used in any context. But I find the argument that in a page on Jesus Christ you should not use images of Jesus Christ strange. STÓD/ÉÍRE 21:31 Mar 24, 2003 (UTC)
I disagree. All the images say is - this is how some religious believers in Jesus Christ perceive him, not this is how he looked. In addition, these images have been used for centuries, which is by definition tradition . That does not mean they are right or wrong images, just that they have been used for centuries, hence they are traditional images. As to dial-up modems, I'm on a dial-up modem & it caused no problems. Nor did it cause any problems on another person's computer when I used a dial-up modem there earlier tonight. If you want a problem, look at articles with vast amounts of text and no images. As anyone who has ever laid out a document knows, that is something you should never do, not for a general readership (academic texts are another matter). Visually contextualising an article is a basic rule of laying out text, because it makes the text more visually friendly.
I think it is irrelevant that Christ didn't look as these images suggest. For a start there is no image anywhere of how he looked. Most pictures of Queen Elizabeth I are doctored. Many middle-ages images of monarchs are false. Many images of modern film stars are phoney. (I can think of one top actress whose face looks like the surface of the moon but with proper makeup, lighting and severely doctored pictures, she is made to look like one of the great Hollywood beauties.) Billions of christians across the denominations perceive Christ as in these pictures. It would be absurd for wiki to say that it will only show real likenesses; does that mean that wiki will only carry images of George Burns and Frank Sinatra if they show them minus their toupees? George Hamilton without the hair-dye? Princess Diana before her nose job? We are dealing with a figure who has been represented in the forms shown for two millenia. You can't simply say 'sorry, billions of people, your images of Christ are wrong therefore we won't show images you use on wikipedia'. You can say in the article 'of course Christ didn't actually look as christian art suggested.' But we don't know how he looked. We do however know how billions, albeit wrongly perceive him to have looked.
Of course art is generates up emotions. Are you saying then that art shouldn't be on wiki pages, other than those devoted to art? I think that is preposterous. If they had captions that said 'Jesus Christ', 'Jesus's birth', 'Jesus on the Cross' etc then you would be right to complain. But they very deliberately don't. They have NPOV captions - a Greek Orthodox Icon of Christ, a Catholic image of Christ. A traditional image of the Nativity, etc. The captions do not say these are accurate images, just commonly used images to illustrate the stories in Christ's life. The captions form no judgments as to the accuracy of the pictures and doesn't ask the reader to do so. All they do is visually highlight common impressions about Christ. You are talking about the crucifixion - here's a common image used of the crucifixion. Christ's birth in Bethlehem - here's a common image used by billions of people of that event. And here is how Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox believers perceive Christ. They do nothing more than highlight commonly held perceptions . They form no judgments, express no opinions, give no analysis. All they do is use commonly held images with deliberately neutral POV captions to make a long article less daunting and more user-friendly. And I simply do not for the life of me see what the problem is or how there could be a problem. STÓD/ÉÍRE 02:35 Mar 25, 2003 (UTC)
A fair point, RK. I chose the images of the nativity, death and resurrection because they tend to be commonly accepted aspects of christ's life, rather than images that are specifically identifiable with one faith. As to the two earlier pictures, I captioned them to highlight that they are the views of specific branches of christianity (Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic), rather than implying they were acepted by all christians. There were other images available which I judged too denominational to use, such as of the Last Supper, which different faiths interpret differently, etc. But his birth, crucifixion and resurrection seemed sufficiently non-denominational. (I even made a point of not choosing a crucifixion scene that had Mary in it, for fear of it being perceived as overly Roman Catholic, given that church's particular 'devotion' to Mary.) STÓD/ÉÍRE 02:35 Mar 25, 2003 (UTC)
We seem to be rehashng an old argument -- I agree with everyone above except JTDIRL. The representation of Jesus Christ in art is a very complex issue and deserves its own article; conversely, to include images here would require too much tangential discussion on art history. Put it in another article. Slrubenstein
Number 1: If you read RK's comments you'd see that he too believed there should be some images used in this article. The issue is simply which ones.
Number 2: to include images here would require too much tangential discussion on art history . T Explain. STÓD/ÉÍRE 05:00 Mar 25, 2003 (UTC)If there are going to be pictures shown, I like seeing pictures from the various traditions, personally. Would it be possible to give the year or at least the century that each one is believed to be from? Also, regarding the captions that say the picture is "traditional", it would really be appropriate to identify the tradition you're talking about; they're certainly not traditional Orthodox icons.
Regarding the Greek Orthodox icon, I have some technical nits to pick. It appears that it has been cropped on all sides, and thereby distorted. In the upper left, there ought to be a large "I" with a circumflex over it, to match the "X" in the upper right corner; the initials I.X. signifiy Jesus Christ in Greek. His right hand is mostly visible, but his left hand should be holding a book, either open or closed, but it has been entirely cropped. If that were shown, it would be possible to identify the proper title for the icon, and the book itself is really part of the icon and is part of what it is meant to communicate. (Typically it represents the Gospel or the Law and Gospel if open (not entirely sure which), or the Book of Life if closed.) In Orthodoxy, icons are written as carefully as any doctrinal treatise; cropping it and presenting it as Orthodox is almost like omitting a paragraph from one of the creeds. Wesley 17:59 Mar 25, 2003 (UTC)
I think the other pictures are useful because they are associated in general with christian imagery. If they are not used in orthodox churches, perhaps they should be described as traditional western christian images. The nativity scene, for example, is used in millions of christmas cards. I do disagree with Sirubenstrein. Yes encyclopædias need to be encyclopædic. But all encyclopædias use general images like these to create a visually attractive page. They do not treat such images as themselves encyclopædic - I know, I have designed a page on Christ for one major encyclopædia and they specifically requested images like these, ones that weren't official artwork associated with one faith (eg, famous catholic mosaics, et
Catholic League: For Religious and Civil Rights
Then a Catholic woman goes to the bathroom, sees the picture and concludes that Jesus is crying. ... Copyright © 1997-2009 by Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights.
Jesus Carrying the Cross Coloring Page - Printable Religious Christian ...
Interactive online Religious Christian Easter color book pages for kids ... Jesus Rising - picture only - no sentence. The Cave Tomb of Jesus - picture ...
Courthouse Jesus portrait draws ire, support | Updates - NOLA ...
I'm a christian and I don't think that there should be a picture of Jesus in the Government courtroom building. Think about it like this, the display of religious figures in ...
Worker fired after posting picture of Jesus
Worker fired after posting picture of Jesus Says manager told him 'God' not allowed on cubicle ... Sokolsky, told WND that the job termination "had nothing to do with anything religious ...
Religious Forum-picture Or Description Of Yourself (bible, Jesus ...
Originally Posted by weatherologist OK, I just have to say this. And I know it's going to sound weird and the mods might cut it, but hopefully
Sacred Heart of Jesus - Framed Picture, picture frame-Sacred Heart ...
Sacred Heart of Jesus - Framed Picture ... Other Available Books and Religious Items
Jesus Picture - Artwork & Posters: Find, Compare, Read Reviews & Buy ...
Jesus Christ In Robe At Gethsemane Religious Picture Oak Framed A... This beautiful framed art goes well in any room. Artwork and ...
Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ - Religious Indoor Outdoor Lawn and ...
Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ Religious Lawn and Garden Statue's are great for indoor or outdoor ... Click the picture for a larger view .
SACRED HEART OF JESUS PICTURE MEDAL
Welcome, would you like to sign in? Register for easy ordering. Order by phone 1-800-854-6316. Customer Service 1-205-271-2990
UK: Airport supervisor suspended for offending Muslims by hanging ...
Or doesn't this count since it is a Catholic who put the picture up? It is still a representation of Jesus. Why aren't the religious leaders jumping on this?