Revising lead
I am going to attempt to revise the lead to make it what seems to me more neutral and conventional. Of course I am open to any criticism. Generally per WP:Lead the lead should be a brief overview of the article, so I tried to round it out a little. Possibly a little more could be added. I considered revising the sentence about an SEC investigation to say that Byrne and some of his rivals have been subject to SEC investigations, but concluded that the material is probably better left to the article. Thanks, Mackan79 (talk) 18:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Media attention section
As part of the Mantanmoreland arbitration I've done a rather rudimentary analysis of every edit in the history of this article up to late last month.
- User:Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The/Sandbox/Analysis/Patrick M. Byrne
One thing I noticed was that up until October, 2007, this article had a paragraph or two about positive media attention given to Byrne. How it was removed I don't know, but the pattern of editing makes me wonder if it was a deliberate ruse. Whatever the truth, and perhaps we'll never know, I think it would be a good idea if somebody examined this link to see if the first paragraph contains anything worth salvaging. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 19:58, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
RfC: Removing lots of overly negative stuff
On a complaint from the subject, I've assessed the amount of negative content, and agree that for whatever reason it looked unbalanced. In particular, there was much dwelling on a single epithet "Sith Lord" which Byrne used a few years ago in a particular social context. To spend several paragraphs on this, even if some commentators have enjoyed tweaking him about it a lot, is not reasonable in an article that is supposed to present a balanced view of the person. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 06:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Anticipation, I read the request for comment. The subject's complaints do not appear to be reflected on this page. Were they posted elsewhere in a public forum?--Stetsonharry (talk) 23:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Stetsonharry. "Sith Lord" is a very famous remark (I'm saying this as a one-time Utah news junkie). That said, it and "jihad" were used to denigrate the campaign which made the article very imbalanced. It's improving. Cool Hand Luke 01:07, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Another article in The Register
I just removed (for now) a link to an interview in The Register, "A Shaolin monk, Warren Buffett and a Russian mobster walk into a bar . . ."
Referring back to earlier discussions of articles in The Register, I seem to recall that consensus was reached that this often opinionated source is not suitable for inclusion in biographies of living persons. On the other hand, this is apparently some kind of podcast involving an interview. Should it be included? The introduction is a little sensationalist, but doesn't look like a smear piece. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 21:22, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
An interview is different, especially considering the recording. If anything, it's more reliable that Wikinews interviews, which have been strongly pushed on Wikipedia. That said, interviews are something like self-published sources, so should only be used for their subject, and should not be used as a reference for anything controversial. Cool Hand Luke 01:02, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Anti-naked shorts campaign
I'm considering what to do about two sections in different articles. We have a section on the anti-naked shorts campaign in this article and one in Overstock.com. There is probably also stuff about the campaign on the naked short selling article. Perhaps there should be a separate article on this, or perhaps all three sections should be consolidated in a single article (either this one or the Overstock article) with a "main" link to the section in that article in each of the others. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 12:22, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
See also and external links
The "See also" and "External links" section disappeared, presumably by accident. I've restored them. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 19:40, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Cancer survivor
Two things, as starters: should we perhaps archive this talk-page, and just make a fresh start? Secondly, I have watched the interviews with Byrne that are on the net. All of them mentions his long battle with cancer (starting when he was in his early 20s), ..and how that has influenced his life and "world-view". Nothing of that is now in the article. Shouldn´t it be? Regards, Huldra (talk) 11:21, 18 March 2008 (UTC),
Wow, looking much better
One of the most amazing change I see is the paragraph that used to read, "During the school voucher debate, Byrne said of high school dropouts, 'You may as well burn those kids.' He was criticized for the comment by the Utah NAACP, but refused to apologize." With the quote in context, it seems he probably meant the opposite of what was implied here—that he believes the current policy causes bad results and burns kids, not that we may as well burn them since they're dropouts anyway.
Good source-checking, Hulda! Cool Hand Luke 20:16, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Suggested changes
I've been in email contact with Patrick Byrne following his complaints about this article. He has sent me an alternative version of the article. Since I started discussing this with him, other editors have got involved in editing it, so I have decided to publish it to Google.
- http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=df9gr9pz_0gk26pzhg
As you might expect, it doesn't comply with all of Wikipedia's policies in its current form (Byrne doesn't claim to be familiar with them all) but rather than discuss this fact I would suggest that we regard it as a starting point for changes and corrections to Wikipedia's article. As a derived form of our Wikipedia article, its content is covered by GFDL. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 14:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I have done i little bit (I don´t think I will do more on this today). The "Campaign against naked shorting" is still far, far too messy. And the opening should still be reworked, IMO. On the changes that Byrne have suggested in the google ducument I have some comments:
- A: I do not agree with his suggestion that the title should be changed to "Campaign to prevent systemic collapse (“naked shorting”)". Very few use that phrase, and I think it is quite POW, as not many others (AFAIK) see any danger of "systemic collapse".
- B: Just one example, he states in the draft that: "they captured the federal regulators to prevent them from addressing the issue, and co-opted various members of the national business press (specifically, Carol Remond, joe Nocera, Jim Cramer, Bethany McLean, herb Greenberg, and Roddy Boyd) and instructed them to downplay the severity of the issue and distort his allegations about it." My comment: if this is his opinion, I think it is so noteworthy that some of it should go into the article. (not including anything which violates BIO) The problem is: I have a problem sourcing this! I find a lot on his blog, but not even there can I find a source for most of this. And as long as that is the case it must obviously stay out. Regards, Huldra (talk) 14:35, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I looked hard for his birthday. The June 7, 2000 Reno Gazette-Journal story mentioned above says he was 37 (as do other stories from the summer of 2000). That places him at 1962-1963. A March 3, 2006 AP article places him at 43, and this November 14, 2005 Fortune article places him at 42. If these are all correct, his birthday must be between November, 14 1962 and March, 3 1963. In any case, he would currently be 45. Cool Hand Luke 18:41, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
OK, I have expanded a bit about early history of Byrne and Overstock: there is still more information which should be included.
As for the section named "Campaign against naked shorting": Should we rename this? There are two separate lawsuits; one in 2005, and one in 2007. As far as I can see, the 2005 lawsuit is not about naked short selling. It is about short selling, for sure, but not "naked". However, the 2007 lawsuit is about naked short selling (if I have understood things correctly.) Are the texts of the lawsuits available anywhere on the web?? If so, we should definitely link to them. Also, apparently some journalists are named in these lawsuits(?) If journalist X is mentioned, and then write an article about Overstock/Byrne, well, then it should, IMO, be noted if we quote from that article. Possible COI, and all that.
As for the structure of that section: should we possibly divide it into two sub-sections: one named, say ===2005 lawsuit===, and the other ===2007 lawsuit=== ? Regards, Huldra (talk) 13:42, 27 Ma
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