Specifics or generalities?
There are currently four satellite pictures of hurricanes up for nom. I haven't voted for any of them yet because I've been rolling over in my mind how encyclopedic each of them is. While none of them are on the main page for hurricanes, tropical cyclone, none of them would be out of place there. The thing is, the picture of Hurricane Ophelia is perfectly encyclopedic of, well, Hurricane Ophelia, which has a substantial article all to itself. Same goes for Hurricanes Rita, Wilma, and Erin. Now technical issues, such as those with the Wilma pic, aside, do we want to treat each hurricane as its own subject, in the same way we treat individual moons? Each hurricane of the past is a historical, non-repeatable, event. I'd like to hear other thoughts on the subject; the pics themselves haven't had many comments. Matt Deres (talk) 19:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Nominations limit?
Speaking of Hurricane photos, shouldn't there be some sort of limit on the number of photos a person should be able to nominate concerning the same subject matter? Just as an example, I'm sure I could go out and find a 20 Hubble Photos that would pass the FP criteria. But nominating them all at once is off-putting and people would be sick of looking at nebulae after the first few. The hurricane pics are nice, but do we really need to see four of them all at once? I think there should be a limit of two photos of the same subject per week. But I highly doubt such a rule could be enforced and is not in the good-faith spirit of Wikipedia. I'm just sayin'...... --ErgoSum88 (talk) 21:38, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
It's hard to draw the line there. We don't limit ourselves to 1 oil painting, after all. It's a weak idea to nominate a bunch of really similar pictures all within the same week. Yet remember that Hurricanehink has written 20 featured articles and tons of featured lists. What needed here is a good articulation of what distinguishes one hurricane photograph from another in terms of captioning and featured picture criteria. It could make sense to promote several, but only if the voters understood why each image carries unique encyclopedic value. Durova Charge! 07:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
commons:Help:Scanning
Just something I was asked to put together, that might be useful here as well. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 11:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Delist/Replace option
I believe we should have Delist/Replace option available for the situation as we're having now with this nomination. Big Ben is one of the most photographed places in the world. I've just done a search on flickr for "big ben london clock tower" and I found 2574 images. In few days, or few weeks, or few months User:Diliff or somebody else might and probably will upload a better, higher resolution image of Big Ben. That's why IMO Delist/Replace option should be available for the voters to see the both pictures the existing one and the nominated one side by side and be able to compare them at the same time.Thanks.--Mbz1 (talk) 13:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- The thing is, Mbz1, I believe it should be that a replacement is confirmed before the old one is delisted. The reason for this is that the previous one very likely did not instantly fall below the standards we expect from FPs when another one was selected to be FP. I completely agree that we don't need two almost identical photos as FP, but both would likely satisfy the FP criteria. Once we have identified a replacement, only then should we delist the previous one, because the main reason we'd be delisting it is not because it is below-par, but because a better one has been chosen to be FP. Otherwise, nobody would support the delisting of an image that does satisfy the criteria. Diliff 13:56, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- And as for someone uploading a better, higher resolution image of Big Ben. Yes, thats entirely possible , but very unlikely at this stage. The existing and proposed FP images are stitched panoramas with a total of seven 13 megapixel images taken with a reasonably expensive 200mm lens. Sure, someone with a 300-500mm beast of a lens might take 20 segments and stitch them for a higher resolution image, but do you really think they're going to bother? ;-) I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, I'm just being realistic. This image's resolution is about as good as could be reasonably expected of a contribution to Wikipedia. Diliff 14:00, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Diliff here. I believe we've already been through this. I recall trying a delist/replace nomination once and being slammed for not doing them in two different steps. On the other hand, both photos weren't by the same photographer, so that may be a somewhat different situation. Still, Diliff's logic is far more sensible. howcheng 17:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe I've missed something. Diliff says "It is just basic logic: If Replacement passes, delist original. If replacement fails, do nothing." OK, I agree with that, but that's essentially what Mbz is proposing surely, but what's being argued against. The problem is, and I think what Mbz is pointing out, that the reality is more like "If Replacement passes, do nothing" . In other words under the current system, the original won't be delisted automatically, is unlikely to be put up for delist, and if it is, may well 'fail' the delist, i.e., be kept. Under her Delist/Replace proposal, you wouldn't have two nominations going on at once as Diliff suggests, it would be a single nomination - the outcome would be either Keep the original, or delist the original to be replaced with the new one. One, and presumably the best one, would unquestionably remain FP. It seems to me that her original proposal has been misinterpreted, and if I'm reading it correctly, I think it's a good idea. --jjron (talk) 06:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- What has confused things slightly is that Mbz1 (in the Big Ben nomination), by withholding her support until she got her way, requested that I firstly delist the existing FP and then see whether the replacement would pass, so thats why I was a bit argumentative towards her suggestion and I didn't read it as carefully as I should have. And I agree with you actually, in this situation, where an almost identical picture is nominated with the intention of replacing an existing FP, I don't see why it can't be done in one step, but it wouldn't apply to all situations, as Howcheng mentioned. If the pictures are significantly different, it would be best to determine separately if there was only room for the one FP. Diliff 09:09, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, OK, I hadn't fully read the discussion in the Big Ben nom, but from what I'd seen of it I thought that may have had an impact. Yes, I see your point here also. It makes sense to delist/replace for almost identical shots, but it's hard to draw a line. If one pano of London is featured, and another comes up, should it go up in a normal new nom or a delist/replace; although ostensibly of the same thing, they could be quite different photos. There's lots of other examples of course. It does seem silly to have two very similar shots of Big Ben featured, but how often would photos of such similar things come along? And it's not like there's not precedents (from memory I think there's three FPs of Hoverflies for example, in about a 200 word article, but people don't seem to think that's an issue); as raised in a couple of discussions above, the 'encyclopaedic value' criteria seems to be of little importance to most voters, so in that context multiple images really don't matter I suppose. When you do get highly similar images, perhaps it comes down to someone taking the initiative to start the delist if the new one goes through, but who should do so? I wouldn't like to dump that job on the closer as well; ideally it probably should be the nominator of the duplicate. The delist/replace idea is good, but probably hard to apply in practice. I suppose more realistically they'll just all stay featured in most cases. --jjron (talk) 10:21, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- Sometimes I think its better to let nature take its course than to create policies for every possibly scenario. That said, I don't mind someone nominating one of my images to be delisted if they have a fair and reasonable reason for doing so. Then it is up to the community to debate and decide. Diliff 11:46, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- I completely disagree with the proposal. Each image should be judged on its own merits, period. If two images, nearly identical, are both FPs for a little while, until one is nominated, deliberated, and actually passes a delist vote on its own merits (or lack thereof), the Wiki world will not end. No fiery implosion or universal paradox threatens existence. Yes, this means that I think Diliff's "replacement" Big Ben should be judged on it's own merits according to the criteria -- which do not (as of my last reading of them) include a proviso that new images can't be substantially similar to old FPs. So Diliff's new Big Ben should pass or fail completely independent of any consideration of his previous FP of the same subject. Assuming it passes
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